TrueCar - DealerTrack (ALG) Relationship: The words of a DealerTrack Employee

And, great work, Stan!!  And thank you to the TC employee who spilled the beans.  You've both got more guts than anybody at a high level in this deal.  Sick.

Thanks.  This is a great piece.

There you go.  Many of us have discussed this transaction in just that way:  When TC/Zag says it "no longer needs DMS data" what it really means is that it found replacements/augmentations from other sources.  WELL, THE DEALER SOLD THE CAR.  SO, who's data is it really?  Does it matter that they got your business information directly from you or from your cousin?  DealerTrack, you're not off the hook now.  Not any more.  I doubt any of the folks involved in this expected the power of social media.  It can topple a government.  And it can stop this, if we keep pushing.  Essentially, DealerTrack sold it's daughter into marriage.  That's something Kings used to do in order to seal covenants and treaties and alliances--which should tell you all you need to know about this deal.  DealerTrack = TrueCar/Zag.  Think about that while you're putting your deals through these systems next week . . .

I was just thinking of the "E-Contract" data, but oh there is so much more. How does / will affect the "Dealers" who are submitting this data to lenders via DealerTrack? Are the Dealers indirectly exposing customers. This is now Truly Frightening!  

I will again mention;Will Transactional Data of an Employee Purchase ( way below cost ) be posted as "Best Price"??  

TrueCar seeks a perfect machine with all of the parts in place to replace the traditional dealer. The problem we have here is that we have only reached maybe 10% of the dealers in the country. Most simply cannot wrap their minds around this. We need to figure out how to get this in front of every dealer in the country in a clear concise message.  If we don't we'll get creamed in the fourth quarter.

Again... Don't forget that through DealerTrack Truecar will also have access to our F&I profit through their Menu system including service contract markup, gap profit and Credit Life. This will be another huge profit leak for us.

Here is a tweet I made last night regarding TrueCars data collection and here is their response. Here is a link to the data polling agreement that dealers sign. http://robfontano.com/2011/12/zag-true-car-dms-data-polling-form-pdf/

True car is either starting to believe their own press or they had better look up the word "transparency" on dictionary.com.

You'll get a real kick out of Painter's letter to dealers... http://blog.truecar.com/2011/12/12/an-open-letter-to-the-automotive...

I will post another BIGGER Blog this week...

Yeah, well, I commented this on that page:  "

Essentially, you've gotten big enough to grow beyond your statements here on dealers' data, then?http://www.techcrunch50.com/2008/presenter.php?presenter=95 Well, all that means is that now it's a data shell game, considering all your partnerships--in the end, the dealers SELL the car so collecting SOLD data and using it for the pricing curve on TrueCar.com IS repurposing dealers' SALES data against them in the marketplace. And there are many, many more than me that understand that. Even AutoNation has now said you are on a drive to the bottom. As did Honda. Thanks."

Hats off to the employee that sent you the email. It is just a matter of time before Dealer Track and True Car spin a web that they cannot get out of. They cannot expect positive long lasting results, with unethical business practices, it just doesn't work that way.

Comment by James A. Ziegler just nowDelete Comment

The Devil Made a Call to Georgia

by Joshua Hirsch

The Devil made a call to Georgia, he was looking for a industry to steal.

He was in a bind because of the forums chatter and was looking to make a deal.

When he came across a young man selling cars, and selling them HOT, then the Devil jumped on his speaker phone and said boy let me tell you what !! I guess you did not know it but I am a car guy too, and if you care to take a dare id make a bet with you.

Now you sell cars good son, but give the devil his due. I bet my business, against your industry because I think I’m better then you. The boy said my name is Jimmy and it may be a sin, but I take your bet your goanna regret cause I am the best there has ever been !! FIRE ON THE MOUNTAIN, RUN BOYS RUN !!!

Thanks.  They are going after you too.  I want to hear about your call.

I am listening to the call with Jerry T and Scott Painter right now and it is exactly how the call went with me.  We had similar questions and the answers were exactly the same.

Dealer just told me he was interviewed by investigator from the Louisiana Motor Vehicle Commission that is investigating ZAG/Truecar with an upcoming hearing. They took a hard look at his records. 

Okay Honda has taken a courageous stand and banned TrueCar pricing with it's dealers. I know for a fact VW is strongly considering doing the same. I hope VW realizes that they've just began to get some incredible momentum in the market AND now is NOT the time to allow an invader like truecar to devalue the brand in the public's eyes. No matter what you sell, TrueCar cheapens your brand.

Group 1 made sure their dealers cancelled after looking at the exposure of having these people rooting around in their DMS, especially with AutoNation's CEO on the board of Truecar...

Group 1 was smart enough to see the writing on the wall and run as from away from these people as possible. When is Asbury, Penske, Sonic and others going to awaken and realize they people appear to be a huge threat? Even large private groups like Rick Hendrick should be looking at the evident danger we're all perceiving here. 

Where are Ford, General Motors and especially...where is Toyota in this escalating skirmish? I am embarrassed that mark Reuss, president of general motors would actually go to TrueCar Headquarters and play with Painter showing him a 750HP Camaro.

I did not mention Nissan because their dealers are using Truecar to sell way below invoice so they can collect stair step money. You guys are smiling now BUT if Nissan takes away the program, you're screwed royally because of the benchmarks you set with TrueCar making your brand image "Ultra Cheap Nissan"

Does Mark Reuss NOT understand that his dealers are being raided by these people cheapening the product down to unprofitable and below? I find it hard to believe that Reuss would publicly suck up to these people if he truly understood.

There are a few investigations of TrueCar popping up here and there AND we're still urging dealers to put more emphasis with your dealer associations to get off of the sidelines and represent us... I know a couple of associations are doing their best while others limped off of the battlefield without firing a shot...  weak. 

I am especially disturbed about Toyota staying quiet while Honda takes a stand. It's like sending a message that Toyota has less value. 

This thing will gather increasing momentum and I predict TrueCar will find some high-profile weak suck who will sellout their integrity for the publicity or hard cash and take a stand publicly backing them and betraying dealers.

Of course, this is all a lot of conjecture, speculation, supposition and opinion...I might be wrong. :)

Reality is that Honda has had policies regarding their dealers advertising below-invoice pricing for many years (at least since 2003). This isn't Honda "going to war" against TrueCar. This is Honda enforcing policies that have existed for many years. It can be spun any way anyone wants to spin it but this is nothing new in regards to Honda's policies and the ramifications of dealers not following them.

The enforcement via co-op denial is timely, new, and specific w/regards to TrueCar.

One of the penalties for non-compliance back in 2003 for advertising below-invoice pricing was withholding the advertising dollars given to the dealer. Isn't that what you're referring to, Keith, when you say "co-op"?

If dealers started doing it through Cars.com, Honda would have the same stance, and they'd enforce it the same way, and it'd be specific to Cars.com, and timely. It's only specific to TrueCar because that's where it's happening right now. Honda can't stop TrueCar from publishing pricing. All they can do is punish dealers who participate in TrueCar's program. 

The data available to consumers isn't going to go anyway. In fact, I think it's going to grow. All this publicity (like this article and all the other articles) only have consumers rooting FOR TrueCar. This is great PR for TrueCar. Consumers that read these articles are CHEERING for TrueCar.

As Grant Cardone says, if you don't have haters, you're not succeeding. 

Grant Cardone also said TrueCar was our friend.  Not only did his statements help them, by your definition, it also helped him.  I explained to him that notoriety marketing has its limits.  Benedict Arnold was notorious, too.

Anyway, in marketing, there is a war and there is a battle.  Wars are not won by winning all battles; nor are they won without casualties.  

My first casualty will not be my personal integrity.

Honda is a negative, generated by the very notoriety of TrueCar helped along here in these blogs; a battle with with the casualty of Honda's support lost and TrueCar in the press.  Oh well.

Anyway, my suggestion is that you use your skills and apply at www.truecar.com/hiring.html.  That seems to fit your personal take on this much better.

Thanks.

Because I disagree with you on some aspects of TrueCar, I should go work for them? I, for a fact, know prominent people within our circles that agree with me. 

I don't know how Grant's statements have helped him. He hasn't made many in regards to TrueCar. If it did in any way, it was through exposure. A LOT of people are getting exposure through this. 

It's only my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Just because I don't agree with you or have presented facts that disarm some of your statements, why do you feel the need to negate me. You've mentioned many times that I should go away. Sorry, Keith. Its not going to happen. These forums are for all of its members, I being one. If you don't like my opinion, don't respond. I don't respond to many of your soap-box tirades.

Grant said the same thing on the phone yesterday.  He said that the more we talk about it the more we give TrueCar PR.  But you know what some of us have reason to believe that Grant might be behind TrueCar.  He says he is not.  However, it seems as a few of his people are out doing some very naughty things to protect TrueCar and try to piss off people like myself and a few others.

Arnold, don't get so dramatic.  I don't like your position.  TrueCar would.  That math is simple; if that's a negative, why?  You support them pretty well, so how am I negating you?  That's silly.

You're digging for a fight, and you won't get one.  I just disagree with you, but, as silly as I sometimes find you, you are also intelligent.  Just misguided in this instance, and for that you might need thicker skin.

Who are those prominent people?  I'd like to hear more about that.  Do they have soap boxes?  Or names?

Thanks

LOL Come on guys.  You both are my friends.  Let's all get along. 

If they've really got 5,000 dealers, the time to worry about not talking about them is long gone.  

"Unchecked ego will undo all the great things that talent and fortune will bring you." - Keith Shetterly

He needs to learn that even he can be checked.  He will be here.

Sure they have names but it's not my place to out them. If they want to chime in, they can and will. I'm not looking for a fight at all. When you say that I should go work for them, in context, that's an attack or at least I take it that way. Ive never disagreed that TrueCar shouldnt take data from dealers and use it against them (if they are). I've only made a couple of comments on this topic:

1) This thread, and its contents, make dealers look bad to a consumer and reinforces us as the "bad guys"

2) I liked performance-based pricing models.

3) Transparency and pricing availability to consumers isnt going away.

4) Honda isn't doing anything new or special when it comes to enforcing their policy of not allowing dealers to advertise under invoice pricing.

If I missed something let me know but I agree with you on the data issue on an even bigger scale than just TrueCar. Dealers need to know who is getting their data, what they're getting, and what they're doing with it. It's a dealers responsibility to protect their data. Im not saying that IF TrueCar was mis-using a dealers data that it's ok. Not at all. Scott Painter was clear in his assertion that TrueCar is not now, nor never has, used DMS data to power its bell curve. If it turns out the CEO of a large company is lying dealers, thats a whole 'nother can of worms.

Arnold, it's a Saturday night.  I'm okay being the bad dealer guys in these blogs.  They have 5,000 dealers already. One third of privately-owned franchise dealers.  We're not their marketing engine for dealers, and they really do NOT want to use these threads to pick a fight with consumers around them.  TrueCar has marketed their product around some mathematics.  The DMS access is actually key as a measure of their algorithms, not just as a way to get them their $300/$400 per car.  And, if the DMS access were stopped tomorrow, they are not ready yet to support themselves without that revenue stream.  Currently, TrueCar is vulnerable on the DMS access for those two reasons; once they augment the stream with TrueFinance, etc. (which they plan), they don't need the DMS access AS MUCH.  However, it actually spins their patentable items off point more than a bit if they don't have that data directly because it's more timely.  I spent a little time with my old math professor today.  For the TC folks reading this, if there are any, let me tease you:  When is your normalized gaussian distribution NOT a normalized gaussian distribution?   When the data ages, of course.

Anyway, have a good night, at least until later I am over and out!

Thanks.